Posts by joey jojo

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

Jeffro

joey jojo:
In that case, the snake couldn’t validly be accused of deception if it didn’t know right from wrong.
I don’t remember that being in the Bible story.

This entire thread is a discussion from a biblical point of view- I thought that was implied?

A male lion doesnt feel bad about killing his own offspring. Many animals are cannibalisitic. Dogs hump our legs. Is that the normal state of the human condition that god intended?

Jeffro, in an online conversation, nuance is sometimes lost. I think our side-bar has come way off the rails.

For the record, I believe the entire story is a fabrication. Its a human-centric origin story that attempts to explain the current human condition and our place in the universe. It has the same characters as other origin stories: A Creator, a Destroyer and a Preserver.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

joey jojo

Jeffro

joey jojo:

Non-human members of the animal kingdom do not know right from wrong.

That sweeping statement based on an errant comparison with human morality is incorrect. Though other animals lack the same level of complex language and reasoning, various species - particularly social species - demonstrate varying degrees of empathy, fairness, justice, punishment, remorse, cooperation, loyalty, problem solving, etc.

This entire thread is a discussion from a biblical point of view- I thought that was implied?

The topic of whether animals demonstrate social/ problem solving/ compassionate behaviours is another subject altogether.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

joey jojo

MeanMrMustard
Adam could have wondered the garden, blissfully and innocently raping lions and goats, with his wife, and neither of them would be able to even begin to grasp why that be wrong. Those actions would hold the same moral weight as eating from the tree of knowledge of good and bad.

The original sin story leaves a lot of questions that are difficult to answer:

What did Eve think she would gain by eating the fruit- what was in it for her?

As mustard eloquently points out - why risk a perfectly happy life, raping lions, goats- or anything else that crossed your path?

Non-human members of the animal kingdom do not know right from wrong. A male lion doesnt feel bad about killing his own offspring. Many animals are cannibalisitic. Dogs hump our legs. Is that the normal state of the human condition that god intended?

If adam had eaten eve- how was he to know it was wrong? Was that a better alternative than eating the fruit? How could god NOT forgive him?

Was the only reason that eve ate the fruit was because she wanted the 'wisdom' to distinguish between good and bad?

Did Adam or Eve understand the full consequences of their actions and how it would affect their descendants?

Did they understand that not only would they die, but that god was going to prevent access to the tree of life and curse them too?

Were they destined to die anyway- without eating from the tree of life?

If the serpent was the original liar- heres an idea: why not just kill the freakin snake and save us all some trouble??!!

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

joey jojo

Halcon
The story ends with Adam dying, according to Genesis.

Once again, I feel the need to point out that compared to his offspring, Adam didnt suffer too much.

At first glance this story is a lesson about how our choices affect us. Maybe the real lesson is how our life choices affect others.

57

Holding a grudge

by LongHairGal in

i read something recently on reddit (not sure what thread) where a person related how some jw told them that ‘they hold a grudge’.. this reminded me of something an old jw acquaintance said to me some years back when i related my bad experience in the religion.. so, apparently, jehovah’s witnesses feel they should be forgiven for anything.

people should forget all about it and act like nothing happened and be charitable towards them, etc… when i read in james and ephesians i got the sense ‘holding a grudge’ was referring to the things average people do to offend each other.. i don’t see it applying to a religion that claimed to speak for god and who engendered hateful and unchristian attitudes towards people.. i know because i experienced this.. in addition, some people’s lives were damaged by listening to faulty teachings and interference in things that were clearly none of anybody’s business.. one case in point: them knocking worldly careers and now there are thousands of destitute jws in senior years with nothing.. then in 2023 the religion does away with a century old teaching about counting hours in the ministry.

meanwhile, i got judged over this.

joey jojo

And always remember- 'the GB never apologises' - according to Jeffery Winder,

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

joey jojo

Compared to the rest of humanity, Adam and Eve suffered nothing. They lived over 900 years in near perfect health in a pristine world.

Now, explain how that's fair to a 5 year old kid living in a war torn, third world garbage heap, dying of starvation.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

joey jojo

Joey - Assuming Adam and Eve deserved their fate, where in the bible is the part that warns Adam and Eve that all of their descendants will be punished for their crime?
Halcon
This is the same question as mustard's regarding the justification for the punishment. If you are a person of faith, it's justified.

And there we have it.

No normal person would punish the descendants of a person in perpetuity because they disobeyed. This - and a lot of other reasons - is why people have trouble reconciling the bible with a loving god.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

joey jojo

Good points mustard.

The message I'm getting is that god expects obedience regardless of whether that person understands or not. Ok, fair enough so far.

Assuming Adam and Eve deserved their fate, where in the bible is the part that warns Adam and Eve that all of their descendants will be punished for their crime?

That might have been useful information to help them make a more informed decision.

88

Who Was The Biggest Jackass Circuit Overseer You Ever Met?

by Sea Breeze in

there was on older white-haired circuit overseer in houston around 1989 or 1990. last name started with a w i think.... not sure though.

even the most brain-dead robotic elders told me he was offensive.

.

joey jojo

Bandicoot, Rivergang, Jonah's and Ozzie, I had Cowling and Bromwich as either CO or DO at different times, so yes Ozzie, maybe we crossed paths a long time ago in a galaxy far away. 🤔

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

joey jojo

Halcon
Because the snake was present when God gave Adam and Eve his instructions regarding all trees, Joey.

Sorry? How in the hell would anyone possibly know that??